Interview with Zach Goodwin

During the COVID pandemic, parishioner Karin Forno conducted a series of interviews of St. Mary’s folks. She is publishing them as a series over time on the St. Mary’s website. 

Note from Zach Goodwin, August 30, 2024

(Zach): As I read through this interview, nearly four years after I gave it, I can almost feel the sense of confusion and loss bleeding through my words. Looking back, I think this was an early draft of a still-emerging belief system, driven by my first exposure to real suffering after a privileged childhood. I’ve since continued in humanitarian work, witnessing more suffering, more violence, in forms I would’ve struggled to conceive of in 2020. Though I tried to during this interview, today I find no rhyme or reason to it, cannot fathom any interpretation of suffering as love, tough or otherwise. I can only understand suffering as the product of injustice and have to hope — and this hope ebbs and flows — that God sees this injustice and is on our side as we combat it. On a separate note, it’s interesting to see how devastated I was about my missed U.N. internship. It ended up being an infinitesimal part of my life and my path, something I hardly think about nowadays. The friends I fell out with did not come back; the other friendships I built up during the pandemic are now some of my closest. I read and edited this draft from my new apartment in Accra, Ghana, where I started a new job less than a week ago. It’s a worthwhile exercise, I think, to consider the things that have come to be because of the things God let pass you by.

Zach Goodwin interview: November 18, 2020

(Interviewer): Could you tell us what you’re doing now?

(Zach): I'm a senior at Occidental College. I study diplomacy and world affairs and journalism as well. And currently I'm doing an internship program at the United Nations, all virtual, though, which is unfortunate. Most years it's actually at the UN, which would have been really awesome. Right now I'm in New York.

It's a long story, but the whole program was moved online in August. The way it works is that Occidental has this special relationship where they place 16 to 18 students at U.N. agencies over the course of a semester. And it's complemented by two classes. Most semesters that's in New York. They have students stay at a dorm and you go to the U.N. every day. This semester, in August, they made the decision to put it all online. From August until the end of October, I was doing it from Pacific Grove, basically from my high school bedroom, living with my parents. About two weeks ago, two friends and I, two other interns, found this little place in Manhattan and decided to sublease it for about a month just so we could do something new and see New York and meet our supervisors. So I've been here for a little under two weeks now. I'm still doing most everything virtually, but at least I can experience New York, in a limited way.

How has the pandemic affected you in your day to day life?

It was pretty hard when it hit in March. Occidental told everyone within the space of a week to move out. It coincided with spring break. We were at my cousin's wedding down in Huntington Beach. And when that week started, it was like everything was a little shaky, but there wasn't any indication that it was going to be what it is now. [ . . .] I think on March 13th, they said you're all going home. March 14th, my cousin got married and it was the last marriage that was allowed to take place, I think, in Orange County before they shut everything down. On March 15th, we drove up to Occidental, emptied my dorm room and then drove back to Pacific Grove. From that point on, everything was moved online. Both my sister and I were home in Pacific Grove trying to do classes and an all-virtual format obviously was very disruptive. My social life was all gone, of course. So it was rough. [So was] the uncertainty of not knowing how serious the virus was or how concerned we had to be. My grandpa also lives really close to us, in Pacific Grove about a mile away. We were really worried for a long time about exposing him. We were very cautious about where we went and what we did. I remember at that time, it wasn't clear still how you got anything. We knew it was airborne. But I remember being worried--what if I touch the wrong thing and bring it back to the house [after] going out to the grocery store? One time I remember I cut myself while I was doing something out and about and I was worried, what if contracted it via the blood?

I just remember that time period, spring and early summer, being really fearful a lot of the time and also just lonely. The whole college scene just evaporated. And before I knew it, I was home. I had some of my high school friends back in the area, but we didn't really see each other because it was a pandemic. You aren't supposed to go and hang out with people. I’d go on runs and walks a little bit. But it was just a lot of sitting at home and just kind of stewing and wondering when it would all be over and every passing month realizing we're not any closer, we're not any closer. Then the fall semester got moved online. And now it looks like winter is going to be online, too. Just not knowing when it's going to end. And it sucks, but it is what it is.

So you've kind of said this already, but one of the things I was interested in is if people had kind of a pattern to their feelings or their experiences from the beginning of the pandemic through to now.

At first, I was fearful and I was also lonely. It was really lonely to have all of college just evaporate like that. And then it kind of gave way to anger at a certain point, that seemingly no one was controlling [things]. There was no government response, no plan, nothing to actually bring this under control when it was obvious that there could have been. It kind of messed with my head there for a while, and I know a lot of friends of mine have had this, too. I had fallings out with a few friends just because I think we were all so stressed and anxious and so far apart that it just became hard to communicate. And little things that wouldn't have been a problem in person became big fights. And so, I kind of learned who my really close friends were from college. But then I also lost several friends just because of how hard it was to maintain contact.

I think throughout the summer I was pretty angry and then pretty upset when this program that I had been looking forward to was all moved online. And I would say it wasn't until August or September that I reached more of an acceptance phase and was able to deal with it a little bit more healthily. I started exercising way more. That was obviously a huge thing that helped me calm down. And this U.N. program that I'm on now is really small and really compact. There’s only 18 of us and we're all going through the same thing. We all really looked forward to this program and we were all disappointed when it didn't happen. But it's good to have 17 other people who are experiencing the same thing, the same frustrations. I have a lot of good friends on this program. I think that is helpful that we’re going through this together. And I think that mitigates a little bit of my anger because I know it's not just me, right? I mean, everyone is having to deal with disappointment and canceled plans and expectations dashed and stuff like that. I have to remember always that there are people who have it much worse off than I do. I mean, I'll elaborate on this maybe in another question, but I spent a lot of time working at the food bank, the county food bank this summer. And, you know, I'd be angry about the fact that I had to do my private university education on Zoom. And then I'd go to CSC and, you know, be handing out food to people who can't afford it. And that's really sobering. So I think it took me a while to balance out my emotions, to come to an acceptance point, to come to a humility point, in a sense. I think I'm in a much better headspace now than I was at the beginning of the pandemic. Things have leveled out a little bit, which is maybe concerning in a sense, because we're just at this very high plateau where we've accepted that Covid is just going to continue and continue. And we're weirdly OK with that. And that's upsetting. But mentally, I'm in a better space.

How did you stay involved with St. Mary’s?

When I came back in March, I quickly realized I needed to do something else. I was just going to go crazy in the house. So I decided I would work at CSC pretty consistently. It was something I did occasionally in high school and something that my grandpa and my mom really did a lot. My grandpa doesn't do it anymore because of the restrictions on age, but I reached out to Sarah Schramm to say, I'd be interested in doing this once or twice a week. And that was the main thing that I did throughout the summer, sort of April through September. Then I tapered off a little bit to focus on school, but I was going in about once or twice a week. I enjoyed it because it made me feel useful. I would also do some of the Lucky runs going up and picking up donated food. I also speak Spanish. So at a certain point that became really helpful because we were seeing a huge surge in Latino families who were coming to the food bank and needed help. And yes, I think that was really helpful because it made me feel useful. And that was really something I needed, just because there was so much uncertainty going around and nothing felt controllable.

Can you think of what St. Mary's has meant to you during this time or what is the significance of St. Mary's in your life right now?

During the pandemic I think my faith has evolved a lot in ways relevant to St. Mary's, and then also kind of independent of St. Mary's due to a lot of different things, due to some travels that I've had, due to college and all the political shifts and stuff that comes with that. But I think St. Mary's has been a good anchor during the pandemic in terms of community and in terms of feeling like I'm useful, in finding a way, a place, where I can channel my faith into action in a sense. I mean, CSC was very important to me as well, because I believe very strongly in the Christian ethos of helping the poor and helping the needy, feeding the hungry. I believe in that very strongly and believe that it's necessary, as a practicing Christian, to put that on display. And so I've always appreciated St Mary's focus on sort that social justice lens and on helping others and putting that into practice. And so during the pandemic, I'm really in admiration of how well St Mary's has adapted to that. I mean, all of Edward’s Hall is basically a staging area now, which is really kind of surreal to see. But it's exactly what I would want a House of God to look like during a pandemic. You know, what are we doing if we're not helping people during a time like this? So I'm really thankful to have St Mary's and it's been hugely consequential for me and a great anchor.

I don't know if you've thought about this much at all, but how do you imagine St. Mary's in the future? Do you think we might change permanently as a result of the pandemic? And if so, how do you see that unfolding? Of course no one knows, but what are your thoughts on that?

I don't think we've even come close to understanding the psychological trauma that this pandemic is going to have long term on people, just in terms of people's comfort, being around other people. I think it has heightened anxieties about relationships and attachment and how you relate with other people. And I hope that St. Mary's and churches can play a healing role in that aspect. I think overall, St. Mary's has done a good job of trying to keep people connected virtually during the pandemic. I mean, it's harder, I think, for some people who don't have as much comfort with technology to access that. But I think St. Mary's will have to keep doing that for a while, even after a vaccine. I imagine some combination of in-person and virtual [will be needed] in order to keep people engaged. I'm hopeful that St. Mary's will realize specifically in the context of some of the social programs that we've done… or realize just how monumental and impactful, for example, CSC was during this time. I mean, our demand tripled there during the worst of it. And so I hope we go, “Wow, we're really running a vital program there” and that we continue to make that a focus and continue to run that even after the pandemic ends. But I don't know what it's going to look like. I think we're still a year or so out until we can be safe to meet in person. So it's going to require some innovation, I guess.

 A big thing right now is the uncertainty of this pandemic. And maybe it seemed worse in the beginning, but it's still huge even now. How has that affected you?

Yeah, that's a great question. And probably the thing that I've struggled most with is I'm a big planner, maybe a little bit of a neurotic planner even. I like to have everything laid out. I had all sorts of plans that I had to cancel and that I'm not going to be able to get back. But I think in a sense, that's where I've found a lot of strength in my Christian faith, in trying to reconcile with that uncertainty. And I think that's really one of the biggest lessons for me about God. There's so much about God that's just inconceivable. God as an entity is bigger than anything that I can conceptualize or conceive in my mind. God is the universe in its entirety. It's all the forces, the uncertainty, the love that you feel, all of that. And so one thing that I've really tried to come to terms with is that I feel God's presence a lot through this uncertainty and through my own struggles to come to terms with it. That's been huge for me. And when I can try to think about “what does it mean for God to have a plan?” or “what does it mean, why can't I understand, what God has in store for me or for other people?” Or “why would  God allow a pandemic to kill millions of people?” It's an upsetting thought. But it's almost ironic, it's like the answer for me is in realizing that there is no answer to that. That whatever God or the universe has in store for all of us is something that we'll never be able to conceive of and fully understand. And there are forces that are working in ways that are inconceivable to us and that will eventually care for us. I talked with Eugene a lot about this to help me to understand God, and he always couches it to me as a parent-child relationship, where the children can't understand why our parents are exercising some sort of tough love or why our parents can’t explain to us all sorts of things, bad things that are happening in the world. And that's kind of like our relationship to God. We get angry because we can't understand on the same plane that God does. But the few times that I've been able to find peace in in the uncertainty has been through trying to think about it in that way, trying to conceptualize uncertainties as something that's natural and as something that's inherent to our inability to understand God in his entirety.

So, has your relationship with God or spiritual things changed as a result of the pandemic, would you say, or not?

Yeah, I think it has strengthened and that's, as well, the irony. When I think about the times in my life where I've redoubled my faith or found more strength in my faith, it's been at times when my life is hardest. And I think that's sometimes hard for non-Christians or people who aren't spiritual to understand. But that's how I feel. I find strength and my belief is renewed in the understanding that we're all going through terrible things, that everyone has challenges that you can't see, and that the only path forward is through empathy and through caring for others, through loving others, and to not beat yourself up about mistakes, to not beat yourself up over things you can't control. So I think the pandemic is, of course, the perfect exercise, in that I tried for a long time to think what logic is there, what godly logic would there be in releasing a pandemic that kills millions of people? There is no logic to that. I don't personally believe that it's a thing that God is actively doing. I don't believe that. But I think that God and Jesus Christ are alongside us here, alongside us as we experience this. I think that's what a lot of the gospel of Jesus Christ was about, him walking alongside people who were experiencing hardship as their equal. And so that's why I think conversely, where ironically, during the pandemic my belief in God and in the gospel has strengthened a lot because I see it as a manifestation of Christian teachings regarding hardship and perseverance and empathy and acceptance of the uncontrollable.

On the other question, too: we're not the first people to experience a pandemic, there have been horrible epidemics all throughout human history. I can imagine, you know, the plague eras where, I don't know, a quarter or 40 percent or 50 percent, some crazy amount of Europe died. You know, they had no idea what was going on. No idea how to contain it. You know, it's like God is way beyond anything we can comprehend, and it's not my job to try to understand why this is happening or that God let it happen or God made it happen. I don't think God made it happen. But why did God let it happen? And we believe in an omnipotent God. So it's an interesting puzzle, but everybody suffers and we don't have to look back very far to see similar catastrophic events. But 2020 has been quite a year and a horrible year.

It’s a shame for everybody in your generation. I do think, to have, some really precious experiences taken away from you and you know that everybody else is having precious experiences taken away from them, but it's quite tragic when there's nothing to really make that any better.

I agree. I think, God gives us the strength to persevere through suffering and to find connections with others through suffering. I think loss and love maybe are the two most universal and unifying experiences. So I try to find strength in that and that there's no reason for something this horrible to happen. There's no logic to it. There's no good side. There's only what you do with it and how you become closer to others during suffering.